016: Keep Your Eye on the Ball – How to Play to Your Strengths During a Tabletop Roleplaying Game, With Robin D. Laws

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>> Clint Scheirer: Did you know that you already possess all it takes

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to be a fantastic Tabletop RPG gamer?

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You can tell great stories with great people

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and have fun. Today, I am super

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excited to have Robin D. Laws who is uniquely

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qualified to talk to you about playing to your

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personal strengths during a Tabletop

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RPG. Robin has over 30 years

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experience as follows, "A writer and Game designer. He

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even has more years of experience being a

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lover of tabletop RPG's. He has co

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hosted the long running podcast, "Ken and Rob Talk

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About Stuff," diving into many topics,

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one of which is hobby gaming. They've produced

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more than 600 episodes and don't show any

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signs of slowing down. And lastly,

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Robin has written books, such as: Hamlet's Hit

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Points, Beating the Story: How to Map,

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Understand and Elevate Any Narrative and

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Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering. All of

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which directly focus on helping GM's,

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but I would argue all players, more

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fully enjoy their tabletop Role Playing Game experience.

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Welcome to claim to Game, the podcast helping busy people

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Master tabletop role playing games one Game at a

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time I'm Clint Scheirer. I've been an educator for

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over twelve years and have helped gamers of all levels

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quickly grasp Tabletop RPG's so they can

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enjoy playing them to the fullest. Stay

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tuned so you can make your claim to game.

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Hey Robin, glad to have you here today. Thanks for

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taking the time to be a part of the Claim to Game

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Podcast. You, were a no brainer, when

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I was thinking of people who could be on this show.

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I've mentioned you several times in all of the different episodes

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that we've gone through so far in season one.

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And it's because you have a rich history which everybody

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just heard in the intro prior to us even beginning a

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rich history in the tabletop gaming industry. You've

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written several books. There's just a wide breadth of

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knowledge that, I'm hoping that we are able

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to, glean from you tonight. So, thank

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you.

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>> Robin D. Laws: And thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

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>> Clint Scheirer: Great, well, we'll jump right in. The first

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question is, how does a

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Tabletop RPG gamer play to their

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strengths during a Tabletop RPG

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game?

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>> Robin D. Laws: Well, I'm going to start by saying something very encouraging to everyone

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listening, which is, if you've gone to the trouble

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to listen to a podcast

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about how to be a better player, you probably

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don't need that podcast at all. And the people

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we really want to encourage to be better players are the ones

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who, it would never occur to them, to try and be a

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better player. So the fact that you're diving in and

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trying to do it means that you're already probably an

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advanced player and you may be looking for the super duper

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extra tips on top. And hopefully we

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can delve into that a bit, today. And maybe you can

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be a role model and provide

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inspiration for the players in your group who are perhaps

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just sort of showing up and not really thinking about it and

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maybe not even putting in the full amount of effort that

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they could.

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>> Clint Scheirer: Yeah, I believe in one of your games it was like the social

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gamer, or one of your books you mentioned the social

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gamer, the person that just likes to be with other people.

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>> Robin D. Laws: There's the casual gamer is the title I

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use for that in Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering and used

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elsewhere. And that's the person who, yeah, they're

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there to hang out with their friends. And this is a,

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we're talking about player tips on this podcast.

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But for the GM, the trick with the casual

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player is to let them be the casual

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player. And you know, that person may be the

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one who, you know, they're the ones who make sure that you get

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quorum and they show up and they roll the dice

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when you tell them to and they're having a good time but they're not

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giving you a lot of energy. And in fact, if the GM

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or other players try to draw them in and get them to do more,

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they'll just pull back because that's not what they're there

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for. And so I think the great

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overall idea that comes from the existence of

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this player type and there are other player types as well, is that

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there are a bunch of reasons why people

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game and part of your job

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as the keener, as the super gung ho player who wants to

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sharpen their game is to realize that

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not everybody will want to do that. And part

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of being a really receptive player who is picking up on other

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people's signals is seeing the signals

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that people don't want to engage on the same level that you do

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and see what they're there for and try and help the

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Game Master, supply that to them.

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>> Clint Scheirer: So whether somebody's a casual

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gamer, whether somebody is super gung ho and they're

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listening to this because they're the cream of the crop or just really

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passionate, I guess there's no cream, of the crop

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here. It's just the crop, the people that actually have.

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>> Robin D. Laws: Yes, no player is better than other players except you,

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the listeners of this podcast.

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>> Clint Scheirer: Yeah, that's right. You're the elite.

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>> Robin D. Laws: Yeah.

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>> Clint Scheirer: But regardless of how long they've been

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playing or why they're coming to the table, everybody

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brings their own assets, their own strengths from real life.

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Even though we're playing make believe, even though we're in an

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imaginary game doing imaginary things,

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you bring a piece of yourself to the

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table.

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And I'd like you to elaborate on as

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somebody who designs and plays games and has played

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games what do you believe are the top three

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strengths that you've seen? And I'm sure it's hard to

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categorize them as these being better than other strengths or

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whatever, but maybe just what are three strengths that

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you find players exhibit that you find very

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helpful to create that cohesiveness or

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allow people to want to be at the table

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and better other people's experience?

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>> Robin D. Laws: Well, the really lucky Game Master has one

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player, ideally, one, not two, who exhibits quiet

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leadership. And this is, "The

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capacity to help move things along,

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prevent them from getting bogged down, to sort of mediate and

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guide decisions and assist the

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GM in, maintaining pacing without ever

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seeming to do so. And that is a

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rare set of ingredients. But when you have

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someone in the group who does that, you may

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wind up crediting the Game Master with the pacing

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that the quiet leader is supplying. So

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if you're looking for something to do to expand

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your portfolio, if you're not already that player,

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look for ways to facilitate, what is going

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on. Put away the idea of, well, I

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have to have this moment or I need this to happen and

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instead reconfigure to "What is the whole

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group experience and how can I enhance

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that." And part of that is picking up cues that

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the Game Master is giving. Part is

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seeing what other people are sort of getting blocked on when you bog

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down in discussion and sort of move them past those

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blocks. And part of it is just letting everybody go

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on and feel that they contributed and then going, right, here's what we're going to

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do. And then you convince them that they're the ones who decided to do

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the thing that you've decided to do. That, skill will stand

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you in good stead. You can make good money having that skill. And at

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the gaming table, it can make all the difference between

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a fun game session

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and, one where everything just sort of gets sideways

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and you're banging your head against each other trying to find,

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a way to move forward in something that should just be light and

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fun.

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>> Clint Scheirer: Now, you said something interesting robin

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cues. Picking up on cues, cues from your

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GM, your Game Master, cues from other people. At

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the table, we talk about. And at least when you

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play dungeons & Dragons, we talk about the, you know, the

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D20 20 roll, the perception check. Right. You're kind

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of making your own perception check at the

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table of, facial expressions, body

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language. What things do you look for?

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Or what things, when you're playing a game, whether you're a

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player or if you're the Game Master, what cues

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are you looking for from your fellow players?

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To be a quiet leader or to move

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things ahead in the story? What are you looking for as far as

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cues?

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>> Robin D. Laws: Well, any story, is more entertaining if there

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was forward momentum, accepting

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possibly some experimental narratives that are beyond our

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a purview here. But certainly any adventure

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story is about forward momentum and the,

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idea that things are moving in one direction or another, whether that

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is improvised or determined by a mission, is

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essential to whether you're going to have a great time at the game table

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or not. And I talked about cues earlier,

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but I think a metaphor that is really useful is the metaphor

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of the Ball. Just as in a

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conventional game of, you know, volleyball, or

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basketball or whatever it is, the question to start off

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with is, where is, "The Ball?" So if

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you're showing up as follows, "A player, the most obvious,

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ball to grab and play with, to be the focus of play

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is, "What is the mission that the GM is setting out for you

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to achieve in this adventure?"

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In the simplest D & D environment, that

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question is solved for you in that the Ball, the object of

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play is the dungeon, and you move forward through the dungeon,

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and you control the area as you move through the

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rooms and learn to master the

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space. And that's why D & D is continues to

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be such a powerful game, is that so much of the

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momentum issue is taken care of by the

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structure of the game. But if you're doing something that

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is more narrative or an investigation

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or a superhero game or something where there is

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more plot other than just going down a hallway

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and banging the doors open, the first

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question is, "What Ball has the

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GM set out that you are supposed to grab

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and run with and do something with." Very early on in the

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hobby, through a strange dynamic that I

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think is sort of explained mostly by

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nerd adjacent personality traits, it

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became very typical for a lot of players to

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feel that the GM should have to sell you

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really hard on embracing the premise

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or in this metaphor of picking up the ball. And

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so the second piece of big advice I would give

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you is as a player is, "See what

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ball we're supposed to pick up and pick it up.

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And assist the GM in. if other people sort

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of lean back and demand that, the GM

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sell them on the mission, find ways to help

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sell them on the mission and move them forward into that.

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In a more sort of sandboxy game where the GM does not

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necessarily have a mission plan for your every evening, the

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next thing to do when you're showing up at a game session

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is to bring a ball. Come up with

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something ideally, ahead of time that you

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want to do that supplements what, you know,

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the Game Master is doing rather than hijacks

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it and introduce that into the thing and have a

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thing to do. So that if you've got a more sort of city based

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or sandboxing game and one where the GM says, "Well,

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here's where we left off this week, what is everybody going

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to do? Does anybody want to do anything?" Often

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even in a game where the players are supposed to take the wheel or

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take the ball, I guess, and run with it,

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often the players will just go, "Well, I don't know." So

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have an answer to that question. Have in the back of your mind

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something that you want to bring about that doesn't

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clash with the premise of the campaign, if it's

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a sandbox game, or with the mission that is laid out

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before you or when you're given the mission, think of

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what is something that it, would be really cool for my character to

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work toward that makes sense in context of, this.

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And then the third level of ball handling is to

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see who else has the ball and what you can

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do to supplement it. So in that case, you see another

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player stepping forward to doing something that they want

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to do and bring about a sort of a cool signature

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moment. And on, one level, it's sort of fun to sort

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of have banter and bickering back and forth to provide

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a foil to them and sort of argue, you know, back and

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forth as to why, that's a silly thing to do or

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to have a different perspective that adds conflict, that's

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fun. But even more so is how do you

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see what they're doing and enhance what it is that they're

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doing? Understanding cues, or seeing

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where the ball is is a matter of, look at everybody

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else around the room, look at what it is that they seem to be

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trying to work toward and ask yourself,

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"How can I help further that thing

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while also doing my thing, the thing I

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enjoy."

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>> Clint Scheirer: It makes me think of improv. The laws of

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yes, and. "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, and...

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why don't we do this?" Or, "Oh I see, you're doing this,

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and I can help." Sometimes that's

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mechanical, sometimes it's narrative.

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But I love that idea of the ball. That's,

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gosh, that's new to me to actually put that as

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a physical analogy of something.

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But I've always heard that in improv. Yes. And.

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going along with this. So you've talked about the strengths,

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quiet leadership, helping, moving things

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forward, coming to the table with something

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that when you're asked, you can say, "Oh, yeah, I

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given some thought to this, and I can talk." What are the number one

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obstacles that get in the way of players enjoying

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themselves at the table?

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>> Robin D. Laws: Well, members of our nerd tribe are very

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thinky, and they are very good at talking

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themselves out of having a good time You may

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find yourselves in a group giving

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commentary as the critical,

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"This wouldn't happen. Unsuspending my suspension of

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disbelief," people around the table. First of all, make

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sure that you don't pick apart the realism of what's

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happening. You might be able to enjoy the fact that you're using

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certain conceits to move the story along,

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but try not to get bogged down in the

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outer minutiae of the setting

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if it gets in the way of the story. Right? There's a reason in Star

00:13:17
Trek why they never give you a star map that

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lays out the times and distances between all the

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different planets, which is that in some

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episodes, you need the characters to get to the Klingon home world right

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away. Other episodes, you need them to take a while to get

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there, and it varies depending on story

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demands. Realize that realism is a

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veneer, that is meant to bring you in and engage

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you without, being something that you need to

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nitpick to death. Another thing to catch yourself out of doing

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is being a veto point and being the person who's

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saying, well, no, this plan won't work. Part of that is you

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may be applying a real

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world logic to an adventure genre

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story which dies if you apply real world

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logic to it. Part of it is that some

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people feel empowered by saying, "No." Those

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people don't listen to this podcast I'm sure. When you're in a

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discussion and things are bogging down and you can't decide what

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to do, part of that is that people may have radically

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different expectations of what's happening, and you want to

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review and look at what all the points are part of

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a discussion, and this is mainly when pacing goes awry

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is when the GM just hands the pacing reigns

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completely to the players and then there's no

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leadership. As potentially the quiet leader,

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look for all of the suggestions that have been put forward.

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Look at the ones that got shot down immediately because one of

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those is probably the obvious thing that the GM

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expects you to do. Any universe that allows

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players to be her characters to be heroic is

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one in which, the GM will give you a shot of success if you just

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do something. Darn it!

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>> Clint Scheirer: Do you have an example of a character you

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played or maybe one of your players who was

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bold that way in a game? Like a memory

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of a game that you played or that somebody else was involved in

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and you're just like, "Yes! You went for it. You went for the

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impossible task and it paid off."

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>> Robin D. Laws: I was in an Elrich game at a convention where I got the

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opportunity to play a ringer. So this was a

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classic character who, they were along in this mission to visit

00:15:14
a prince. The character seems to be a useless

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upper class fop. Then when he gets to the

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palace, he drops the veneer and it turns out, oh no,

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he's the cold, blunt assassin who's there

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to kill the prince. If you were just

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normally to go into that and surprise all

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the players with a ringer, they might like, recoil from that. But

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if the I, was able to make the fop funny enough

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and engaging enough that people enjoyed having him around, and

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then that, made it all the bigger shock when this other

00:15:44
character turned out to be the real person and started

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ordering them around and telling them to do things that they didn't necessarily want to do,

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but they were so gobsmacked, but at the same time

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entertained, that they, went along with

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it. And so I think that's the trick of making a bold

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swing work, is to make sure that

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you're not doing it in spite of all of the

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other players and what they enjoy, but that you're making sure

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it's something they enjoy too. And if you do something

00:16:10
really big and everybody is freaked out by

00:16:12
it, first of all, break character briefly and

00:16:15
say, well, do you really want my guy to do this? Because I can

00:16:18
adjust and, that's something players rarely do.

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GM's do it more. But you as a player can always break character

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and step into authorial mode in order to

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avoid something weird from happening. It may be a

00:16:29
coincidence, but in the rare times I play, I'm usually handed the character

00:16:32
sheet of the really evil badass for some reason.

00:16:35
There was another Fall of Delta Green Game where I

00:16:38
was given the sergeant most likely to frag

00:16:41
his superior officer. And of course, as

00:16:44
soon as an opportunity occurred for that to happen, I

00:16:47
said, "Well, my guy gets out his grenade." And then I stopped and

00:16:50
said to the player, Steve, the player playing the,

00:16:53
officer character, I said, "Okay, now we can have this go the other

00:16:56
way. Do you really want this to happen?" And in that case, the player

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went, "Oh, yeah, blow me up with a grenade. I'll be a ghost for the rest

00:17:02
of it." And, he was perfectly happy, happier, I think,

00:17:04
being, the horrible ghost haunting the, rest of the

00:17:07
squad as the adventure continued.

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>> Clint Scheirer: Had the image of Bob Ross. It's a

00:17:12
happy little accident getting blown up by a grenade. A few

00:17:15
times.

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You've brought up what players are

00:17:18
expecting at the table. Some, groups will

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have a session zero to sort of set

00:17:24
those expectations. Like, this is the theme.

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These are the, you know, this is a serious game. Like we're

00:17:30
going for epic or we're going for slapstick

00:17:33
comedy here. Like slip on as many bananas as you

00:17:36
want. There's the expectation set before the

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game happens. Usually it's a whole session in its own, a whole

00:17:42
getting together and then coming back later to play the game.

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That's a little bit harder at a convention, right.

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You may not have that extra session zero

00:17:51
time

00:17:51
>> Robin D. Laws: Yeah, if it's a four hour slot, your session zero

00:17:54
is 15, minutes.

00:17:55
>> Clint Scheirer: Right.

00:17:56
>> Robin D. Laws: And so the thing there is to, you know, lock in immediately and

00:17:59
figure out what you're doing. Now, a lot of that work, of course, in a typical

00:18:02
con run is done with pre gens. When you're

00:18:05
playing at a convention and you're handed a character

00:18:07
sheet, look, for where the ball is on the

00:18:10
character sheet. Look at what you're being expected

00:18:13
to do, by, whatever is indicated for you.

00:18:16
And, it's very common to have things like the

00:18:18
character who is a ringer in those things

00:18:21
in order to create excitement and make sure something

00:18:24
happens and happens between the players. If you have the

00:18:27
opportunity to sort of paw through the character sheets, find

00:18:30
the one that has the ball that immediately

00:18:33
appeals to you or the thing that you think you can play the best.

00:18:36
But, one way or the other ask, "What is the

00:18:39
request being made of me by this character sheet?"

00:18:42
Because an analogy I often draw for GM's is

00:18:44
that when a player creates a character sheet

00:18:48
that's, like their order at a restaurant, they're saying, "These are the

00:18:50
things that I would like to do and have happen in the course of the

00:18:53
campaign. What can we do to bring these out?" And

00:18:56
so to flip that on its head, as a player, when you're

00:18:59
presented with a character, sheet, ask

00:19:02
yourself, "What question is this asking of

00:19:05
me? What cue am I being given? What is the

00:19:08
ball and how do I pick it up and be ready to run with it?"

00:19:10
>> Clint Scheirer: Now, it's okay if you don't have an example of this, but I'm curious, is there

00:19:13
a time where you've seen the ball dropped? The

00:19:16
ball was there and completely,

00:19:19
like, either dropped or the person refused to hold onto the

00:19:22
ball. And it, like, what. What happened

00:19:25
when that that occurred? If you have an

00:19:27
example,

00:19:28
>> Robin D. Laws: Well, I don't want to bust anybody, so I'll talk in more general terms.

00:19:31
>> Clint Scheirer: Very good.

00:19:31
>> Robin D. Laws: But that kind of premise rejection

00:19:34
of refusing to pick up the ball remains

00:19:37
super common. And even in playtest reports that I get

00:19:39
when getting playtest feedback on scenarios, and so

00:19:42
forth, will quite often have bits where, well,

00:19:45
the players just didn't want to do this. They didn't. They saw where

00:19:48
the plot hook was, but they just didn't feel convinced that

00:19:51
they should pick it up. I don't know if there's a generational thing where

00:19:54
younger players who are raised more on

00:19:57
watching, actual plays, where the people

00:20:00
are coming into it with a lot of improv background or a lot

00:20:03
of improv spirit and just naturally pick up the ball. So

00:20:06
maybe this is a self correcting problem over time

00:20:08
but it remains extremely common

00:20:11
for players to reject the

00:20:14
premise. They're like, "You haven't talked me into this hard enough."

00:20:17
Whereas, I would hope that eventually, over

00:20:19
time that everybody will have the assumption that

00:20:22
my job is to engage with the

00:20:25
premise. By engaging with the premise, I can help bend

00:20:28
it in a way that I find more interesting. But

00:20:31
I'm not here to be. I'm not a

00:20:34
reluctant customer waiting to be sold a car.

00:20:37
I'm a participant in a creative process that depends

00:20:40
on everybody getting in sync and deciding

00:20:42
to, do something. And that if there's something

00:20:45
you don't want to do, just, saying, well, my character wouldn't do

00:20:48
that, is an automatic roadblock.

00:20:51
Right? And everybody's had that happen in game. And that's

00:20:53
not just the character, dropping their player, dropping the ball.

00:20:56
It's the player very deliberately smacking the

00:20:59
ball down in the court and walking away. And

00:21:02
so if you feel that impulse, if you feel, well,

00:21:05
my character wouldn't do that, or I don't want to have my

00:21:08
character do this instead of just saying no,

00:21:11
but my character would do this thing

00:21:14
which also moves the narrative toward the goal

00:21:17
in another way that is also interested and active,

00:21:19
rather than just having me

00:21:22
veto what's going on and waiting for everybody else to petition

00:21:25
me for permission to go forward.

00:21:27
>> Clint Scheirer: That's so interesting. So in your,

00:21:30
terminology of the Laws of Good Game

00:21:32
Mastering, I'm a method actor. Very much

00:21:35
so. As a player, I want to do the things my

00:21:38
character would do and be the character,

00:21:41
even if it's to the detriment of the group sometimes. And I've had to

00:21:44
learn if it's not moving the story forward, it's

00:21:47
usually not fun anymore.

00:21:49
>> Robin D. Laws: Right. If it's actively annoying everyone else around you at

00:21:51
the table that's the textbook

00:21:54
definition of selfishness, right? It's like, how can I? And

00:21:57
so the question then becomes not just, "Well, how do I not

00:22:00
do the thing I want to do?" but, "How do I make the

00:22:03
thing that I want to do be satisfying to everybody

00:22:06
else in a way that makes them glad that I did it?" Are you

00:22:09
adding fun, or are you having fun at everyone's expense? So

00:22:12
the classic sort of, strangely

00:22:15
enough, method actors, I don't know if this is true for you, tend to

00:22:17
prefer sort of brooding, loner characters who kind of want

00:22:20
to go off and do things on their own.

00:22:22
>> Clint Scheirer: I'm pretty sure I was a grumpy wookiee when I made a

00:22:25
very poor choice. That left us all, I think, in a

00:22:28
derelict ship somewhere in the galaxy.

00:22:31
>> Robin D. Laws: Yeah. So the grumpy wookiee, if

00:22:34
the grumpy wookiee is like, grumpy,

00:22:36
while reluctantly going ahead and doing

00:22:39
the thing, that's a basic narrative

00:22:42
trope that works, right? The character who complains about doing

00:22:45
the thing while doing the thing, that's fine. But the

00:22:47
grumpy wookiee who won't get out of the ship, is

00:22:50
another problem, or you know, the one that, won't

00:22:53
go along with the rest of the group. So you have to find a way.

00:22:56
Just, like in a horror game, a lot of players want to protect

00:22:59
their characters even though they've signed up for a

00:23:02
horror game and won't go in and do the scary things

00:23:05
that they need to do in order to be horror characters.

00:23:08
Again, it's a question of how do you embrace the premise,

00:23:10
in that case of the genre and acknowledge that

00:23:13
you have agreed not only to play a horror game,

00:23:16
but to play a horror character who will make

00:23:19
the sort of bold horror character,

00:23:21
choices that will get them into horror trouble?

00:23:24
>> Clint Scheirer: Ten Candles is one of my favorite Halloween

00:23:27
RPG's. In the premise of the game, it starts

00:23:30
out saying your characters will not make it. Just

00:23:33
flat out like, eliminated the, try to survive.

00:23:36
Nope, you are not trying to survive. You were trying

00:23:39
to tell a really good story and that's the

00:23:41
goal. So if it sounds good, if it sounds cool, if

00:23:44
it's something that's within the genre, go with it. It's like

00:23:47
they've been given permission to not try to save their

00:23:50
character.

00:23:51
>> Robin D. Laws: Convention scenarios, in particular in the horror genre, will

00:23:54
set that out and players will be disappointed if their characters don't go

00:23:56
insane and or die. But, there are other

00:23:59
horror games where it is sort of expected that you will try

00:24:02
to keep your character alive and care about them and want them to

00:24:05
continue. So you have to balance that in the way that

00:24:08
a episode of a horror based television

00:24:11
show would do that. And that's often, I think, a good way. So if

00:24:13
you're sort of getting stuck on, "How do I do

00:24:16
this and still play the character I want to play and do the things I want

00:24:19
to do?" Stop for a second. Go, "Well, if this was a

00:24:22
movie, you, know, if this was the new Star Wars

00:24:25
show on Disney + and there was a

00:24:28
grumpy wookiee character and, he was mad and

00:24:31
he was on the ship while everybody else went off into

00:24:33
the derelict starbase, what would happen

00:24:36
in the show?" Well, what would happen in the show is relatively

00:24:39
quickly, he would show up to stage a surprise

00:24:42
rescue. If you tend to make boring

00:24:45
choices while you're trying to do the thing you want to do,

00:24:47
or refuse to do the thing that

00:24:50
you, want to do, because it seems like your character wouldn't do that. Just

00:24:53
say, "Well what satisfying choice would happen

00:24:56
in the tv show of this?" And then do that.

00:24:58
>> Clint Scheirer: Is there a game that you feel sets up

00:25:01
the premise very well for the expectations of both

00:25:04
the genre and what the game's all about, like,

00:25:07
whether you played it at a convention, whether it's one that you've worked on

00:25:10
or other people that you know have worked on, is there a game that you

00:25:13
find is very helpful in setting those

00:25:16
expectations for the characters right off the bat?

00:25:18
>> Robin D. Laws: I think most modern games do that because most modern

00:25:21
games have, first of all, what's called a core activity

00:25:24
where they define who the characters are

00:25:26
and what it is that they do. You are modern

00:25:29
agents fighting a secret occult conspiracy,

00:25:32
or you are vampires engaged

00:25:35
in intrigue and the secret, blood sucking

00:25:38
history of your city or you are roving members

00:25:41
of a, Starfleet going around, solving

00:25:44
space problems. So most contemporary games

00:25:47
do that. Over time I've designed things into my

00:25:50
games that sort of further that. And one of those, for

00:25:52
example, in some of the Gumshoe horror games

00:25:55
is to make sure that characters have drives. And this is

00:25:58
where you have to, as a player, pick or

00:26:01
invent the reason why you get into the sort of

00:26:04
trouble that the genre

00:26:06
contains. What happens when you fall into

00:26:09
that trap of thinking more like a real

00:26:12
person than like a horror adventure

00:26:14
character or you know, you get too scared and not

00:26:17
want to do things? The GM can just say, "Well,

00:26:20
actually you probably do go down into

00:26:23
the basement with the skittering spider noises

00:26:26
because of, your drive. Remind me what your drive is and then

00:26:28
explain why it is that you do that. And so you look at your character,

00:26:31
"Oh right. I'm protective of people around me and they're

00:26:34
going to go down and I guess I have to go down into the spider basement

00:26:37
with them." That's a very specific, clear,

00:26:40
direct example of a mechanism

00:26:43
that's designed to achieve exactly the thing that we're talking about.

00:26:46
>> Clint Scheirer: Have you ever seen a strength that went too

00:26:49
far? It's good in itself, but then

00:26:52
it went too far and now it's negatively affected the Game.

00:26:54
I think the phrase I'm using is strength gone astray.

00:26:57
>> Robin D. Laws: What I would say more is that for each playstyle

00:27:00
there is a dark side. If you are, the casual

00:27:03
gamer, but you're completely checked out or you're looking at your

00:27:06
phone or you're reading a comic book instead of paying

00:27:09
attention, well, that's the dark side, right?

00:27:12
You've gone from being a light contributor to

00:27:14
detracting from what's going on. If you're a method

00:27:17
actor who says, "My character wouldn't do that," and stops the

00:27:20
action, that is the dark side of that character type.

00:27:23
If you're a tactician who gets

00:27:26
upset whenever conflict occurs that they can't

00:27:29
completely derail and prevent interesting things to happen

00:27:32
through superior preparation, that's the

00:27:35
dark side of that character style. Or

00:27:38
the person who shows up and they just want to be the butt

00:27:40
kicker, they want to have combats and that's mostly what they're interested

00:27:43
in. And if they get into a situation

00:27:46
where the characters, other player characters

00:27:49
are talking to the people in the tavern and you go, "Next

00:27:51
fight!" Or you go, "I find someone

00:27:54
tough and punch him in the nose!" That's again, the

00:27:57
dark side of that playstyle because or the selfish

00:28:00
side, right? Is that you're paying attention only to the thing that you

00:28:03
want, and your attention span has been so

00:28:06
completely blown out that you can't

00:28:09
tolerate other people having the stage for a while.

00:28:12
Now it may be that everyone else has forgotten that you're

00:28:15
a butt kicker and they've been talking in the tavern for 3

00:28:17
hours and you think there's not going to be a fight. But punching

00:28:20
the nearest guy without regard to consequences is

00:28:23
perhaps not as fruitful an answer to that problem

00:28:26
as, "Hey, can we move things along so we can get to the

00:28:29
dungeon and at least, you know, have one combat encounter?"

00:28:32
Is probably the better way to handle that.

00:28:34
>> Clint Scheirer: So people have talents.

00:28:36
Sometimes they can go too far, go to the dark side.

00:28:39
Sometimes they help move the narrative forward. When they're grabbing

00:28:42
the ball and taking what's been offered

00:28:45
to them and everybody's having a great

00:28:48
time That's like ideal. How can

00:28:51
listeners best hone

00:28:53
their strengths? What is the best

00:28:56
way to do this? And then also, are there any resources

00:28:59
that can help them hone these strengths?

00:29:01
>> Robin D. Laws: Well, there's a ton of great, books and

00:29:04
articles on, role playing style. And you,

00:29:06
can, I think, probably easily find those. I guess

00:29:09
the final thing I would say in this regard is try

00:29:12
honing your attention. Your ability to pay attention,

00:29:15
what the other people in the room or the other people

00:29:18
on the zoom game, which is

00:29:21
immediately, five to seven times harder. Pay

00:29:24
attention to what it is that they pick up, which is just

00:29:27
yet another way of saying, "Keep an eye on the ball.

00:29:29
Look for the ball. Bring your own ball. See who else has

00:29:32
got a ball." Just the exercises of asking yourself, "What is

00:29:35
the ball and who's got the ball? And what can I do when I get the ball?"

00:29:38
is I think, a pretty straightforward, way of tackling

00:29:41
that.

00:29:41
>> Clint Scheirer: Pay attention, Pay attention to the ball. Pay

00:29:44
attention to others.

00:29:45
Before we wrap things up, do you

00:29:48
have any current projects, anything that's up and coming,

00:29:51
anything that you're excited about, that's about to

00:29:54
release or that you've been working on for a while?

00:29:56
>> Robin D. Laws: The most recent thing, that I did that's actually out,

00:29:59
has been out for a while, and that's the Yellow King Role Playing

00:30:02
Game from, Pelgrane Press. So, if you want

00:30:04
to look at something that you can actually currently pick

00:30:07
up, I would go for that. There's a bunch of, support

00:30:10
material for that as well. Things I have in the pipeline

00:30:13
are a Cassilda's Song, which is a giant mega

00:30:16
campaign for that game, for the Yellow King Role Playing Game.

00:30:19
And I've also got a game coming out also through

00:30:22
Pelgrane the working title is First Edition.

00:30:25
That may change, but what it is is it's a one

00:30:28
GM, one player game, of

00:30:31
interpersonal interaction and dramatic development.

00:30:34
So it's a game that would allow you to play, for example, a

00:30:36
pastiche of the Great Gatsby, or to be a

00:30:39
character in a shakespearean comedy, or

00:30:42
a more serious, non adventurey kind of science

00:30:45
fiction story. And that sort of

00:30:48
builds both on the game Hillfolk that I did and uses

00:30:51
the basic mechanics of that, but also

00:30:54
the lessons that I learned designing the Gumshoe One - 2 - One

00:30:57
games. Which again, are one player and, one

00:31:00
GM.

00:31:00
>> Clint Scheirer: Awesome. I have heard so much about Hillfolk. I haven't

00:31:03
played it yet. I'm excited for the

00:31:06
one - on - one game that you talked about, First Edition. There are

00:31:09
some really cool solo rpg's that have

00:31:12
come out. The fact that a GM can

00:31:15
almost like. It almost feels like a concierge experience

00:31:18
for an RPG there. When you're doing it, just the GM and

00:31:21
one player.

00:31:22
>> Robin D. Laws: It's a super intense experience because you're both on

00:31:25
stage the whole time and you cover ground

00:31:28
really rapidly because there's no part where you stop

00:31:31
and discuss with the other characters what it is that you're going to

00:31:33
do. And it creates something that is much more

00:31:36
like a novel or a dramatic

00:31:40
movie with a single protagonist than

00:31:43
people, are probably used to from, most other role playing games.

00:31:45
>> Clint Scheirer: Super cool. Robin, where can people find you

00:31:48
online if they want to reach out? Obviously they

00:31:51
can go look at the materials. on Pelgrane Press,

00:31:54
you have several books out, ones that I've read myself.

00:31:57
Like, where can they find you if they wish to connect or just

00:32:00
say.

00:32:00
>> Robin D. Laws: Hey, you can find me on Bluesky, that's

00:32:03
@robindlaws.bsky.social or I'm also on Mastodon at

00:32:06
@robindlaws@dice.camp.

00:32:06
>> Clint Scheirer: And are there any questions you think I missed in

00:32:09
relation to player strengths or

00:32:12
encouragement that you would give players of any

00:32:14
type that you just feel like if we didn't say it,

00:32:17
it would be a shame?

00:32:19
>> Robin D. Laws: I think you and I have both done a superlative job and

00:32:22
can pat ourselves on the back and go off and

00:32:24
have the beverage of our choice, having answered every question

00:32:27
that is possibly posable in this situation.

00:32:30
>> Clint Scheirer: Well, Robin, thanks for being here. Thanks for your time and,

00:32:33
we hope to have you again sometime soon.

00:32:35
>> Robin D. Laws: Okay, well, thank you so much for inviting me on.

00:32:37
>> Clint Scheirer: Join us next time as we continue our Quest

00:32:40
claiming Goblin Quest. With two rules hacks down,

00:32:43
we've got five more to go. Our next one revolves around the

00:32:46
unfortunate destiny of English actor Sean

00:32:49
Bean. Not good with actor names? Well, he's

00:32:52
known for playing Boromir in the Lord of the Rings trilogy and

00:32:55
Ned Stark in Game of Thrones. The Claim to

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